Avian Gamers Network

As some of you may have noticed, I’ve been a tad more... grumpy in game since I’ve gotten my Mining Barge, when working with groups. It’s not that I don’t like the ship, I love it, but despite the benefits there are some drawbacks when working closely with other miners.

The problem is mainly with the cycle time on the mining lasers that the ship uses, all of which are a standard three minutes. If a barge and another ship with a bunch of Miner II’s are both mining the same asteroid (Omber), the other ship will probably win out in extracting more than half of the ore, as although the Miner II’s each have a much lower yield, they can pull out small chunks at a much greater frequency. Which means that by the time a Strip Miner reaches the end of it’s second cycle (having already pull ore after the first), there is nothing or very little to extract. What you can extract from is determined by what is there at the end of the cycle; if there is no rock anymore, there is no ore for you!

It can be very frustrating to waste a full three minutes on a rock to get only a couple hundred units of ore, or even nothing. When it happens time and again, that’s a lot of wasted time that could have been used going after other asteroids and the very profitable omber.
As it is, just one of my lasers can clear an Omber asteroid in just about two cycles, so you can imagine it is a bit annoying when one is wasted.

I could continually activate and deactivate my lasers in order to artificially shorten the cycle times and take out smaller chunks at a time, but that gets annoying in itself.
Even when I’m on my own I am keep having to check the ore scanners to make sure I’m not wasting time getting just 9 units of ore.

But there is also the problem that my ship is even less manoeuvrable that a hauler. So I can’t just clear out a small pocket of asteroids, move over to another spot, clear out another small pocket, and on and on.
I am much better off positioning myself to cover about three quarters of a belt from one spot, and mine out as many off the rocks I have in range (15km), to make the best use of the potential of the ship.

Earlier in the day yesterday there was just myself and LA in the one belt mining away. We each took one side of the belt and it worked out great. We cleared out the belt and then brought in haulers to clear up.

And really I think this is the way it should be done with larger groups. Instead of everyone all going into the same belt and swarming all over it, we split up into smaller groups with two or at most three miners in a single belt, with a few such groups over a few belts. As long as there are a few haulers (so Angus doesn’t have a stroke) and as long as those miners who can’t protect themselves from rats are with someone who can, it should work out well on ops directed as specific ores, and would be very helpful to those of us who have Barges .

Good call, Obo.

I also think that upgrading to bookmarks would save us a lot of time as well.

If we're going to continue to mine frequenty in Aice, I think one of us should spend a bit of time (in a fast frigate is probably the best idea) to create four bookmarks for every asteroid field.

Most firelds are in crescents that look like a paren - ). I'd like to hire someone to go through and make bookmarks 15km beyond each of 4 points in each of the asteroid systems, and then a point 15km beyond the Aice II station from each of the roid fields (just so the angles are correct when jumping in and out. Points to/from each of the stargates would also be useful.

Once we have these, we should all be able to trade the bookmarks with each other to make life much easier. Can you copy bookmarks rather than just moving them? If not, then whoever makes these should probably make 10 of each.

What says anyone? I'll pay 2 million ISK to whoever creates these and distributes them to everyone.

So, the bookmarks should be named:
Aice Field I-1.a (Leftmost Point)
Aice Field I-1.b (Mifleft Point)
Aice Field I-1.c (Leftmost Point)
Aice Field I-1.d (Mifleft Point)
Aice Field I-1.Return To Station
Aice Gate - Alogrwhatever
Aice Station - from Gate Alogrwhatever
..etc..

_________________
--The Hermit

As far as Aice Station goes... I put a bookmark directly under it in the exact center of the station. Now I can insta-dock no matter what direction I'm coming in from.

So there is no need for multiple bookmarks at the station.

If you want a copy of that bookmark, just give me a holler in-game.

Station are pretty easy to bookmark. Especially the type at Aice II. Just make a bookmark the moment you undock; you will always warp within docking range.

You can copy a bookmark by shift-dragging it.

And Obbo's suggestion is a good one. The hardest part as a hauler is that I can pick up one can, then I have to fly sometimes up to 45km to get another one. And as everyone knows, haulers are slow as hell, and afterburners don't speed it up very much.

There was a point last night where it was easier for me to warp to LA, pick up her can, then warp to Obbo in another field to get his. Took at least half as long as traveling from one side of a belt to another. I just used the ability to warp to within 15km of a gang member.

If anyone knows a way to speed up my Itty without reducing cargo capacity, let me know. I've got one hi slot, and one med slot open. And if necessary, I can open up another hi slot.

Very true. Unless most of it is to have fun, but I’m all for maximizing our time and having fun.

Therein lies part of the issue. You can’t play well with others . If you are taking ¾’s a field, that leaves ¼ for the rest of us. We either have to mine different asteroids (as you suggested) or learn how to operate together. Admittedly, if we get into lower sec space, we’ll need to huddle more as a group. Thus, the long term solution would be to learn how to operate efficiently in close quarters.

But, in places where we can handle the RATS, efficiency would probably be making the slowest ships move the least. Thus, in Aice, it would make sense to be mining multiple fields as long as the haulers can handle it as well.

Does it make sense for all of us to move towards barges (for miners)?
Should we create more hybrid ships that can mine, and defend against RATS or should we just have ships that do either/or?

I thought you had to be 15km away for the insta-dock?

The bookmarks suggestions is excellent and really more to a point now that we are learning more about our skills and mining is how to work smarter together. (That and getting some additional haulers to assist with operations).

I'll see what I can do to help with the hauler, though I wasn't planning to go that route, it should just be a few days worth of training. With the insta's, I'd be able to get back to the dock, change ships and come back out in no time, unless there was full time need.

I guess ultimately, we’re learning how to mine smarter.

_________________
Dalaran: Arindel - Frost Mage (Mining/Alchemy)
Dalaran: Roran - Paladin (Weaponsmith/Blacksmith)
Dalaran: Baine - Rogue

Nope. To dock at a station, you have to be pretty close to it. I believe it's somewhere around 1500m away. When I warp to my bookmark, it puts me right underneath the station, toward the outside of it. Then I can dock with the station immediately after coming out of warp.

i'm about 4 days from getting the mammoth hauler...sorry i couldn't join last night...with 100k units of soil and fiddling with the laptop..i wasn't going to be much use

_________________

We can't always count on 100% attendance...having 3-4 haulers would probably provide enough backup. that way, people can choose to either haul or mine or provide cover.

_________________
Dalaran: Arindel - Frost Mage (Mining/Alchemy)
Dalaran: Roran - Paladin (Weaponsmith/Blacksmith)
Dalaran: Baine - Rogue

Actually, one or two haulers with a good cargo capacity is usually all we really need. I've been able to keep up in a small group reasonably well. It's just nice to have someone that can run and grab a second hauler for when I start getting a little behind. My lack of speed is the killer.

When we have a large turnout for a mining op, 3 haulers is probably better.

I'll change the above to :

We can't always count on 100% attendance...having 3-4 people capable of being a haulers to provide backup in the event people aren't online. The added advantage is that people can choose to either haul or mine or provide cover.

_________________
Dalaran: Arindel - Frost Mage (Mining/Alchemy)
Dalaran: Roran - Paladin (Weaponsmith/Blacksmith)
Dalaran: Baine - Rogue

As a new guy, I figured that the haulers have enough trouble, thus having fewer cans to pick up would be better for them. Therefore I left it to the older guys to place the cans. But the other day when we went to get Omber, the Avian can was in range of only one rock, and Obo was telling me to get off the rock. For a new guy this was confusing and unfun.

I ended up making my own can, and thought my can probably made more trouble for the haulers. Later at another belt I was the second miner to arrive. A few minutes later Obo arrives and starts hitting the rock I was mining. I was like "What the &^$#?", and flew off to the other side of the field.

A few days back I did not understand what Obo was complaining about. I could not tell if he was RPing with me or if it was just that time of the month. As the night went on, he explained the situation much like what he posted above.... and then it all made sense. But before then I felt unwanted and questioned if I just needed to log off.

This thread helps a lot, because new people don’t have the same problems as the old people. Thus we can not realize we are getting in your way.

In hind site I think I should have been mining another kind of Ore. That way I could have stayed near the protection, and the existing can.



A

Well, now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

This is a good point, would it be worth having the new guys in those fast niffty frigates mine Scordite and Veld while the barges ar mining the Omber?

_________________
X2-PB

Pathfinder Kingmaker Campaign:
Gednan Malithanar - Wizard (1)
Dukin Thunderstrike - Ranger (1)

Star Citizen: - https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
AntanKarmola on their forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic: - Not really playing
Antare Karmola - Jedi Guardian (32)
Antan Karmola - Jedi Shadow (21)
Arianae Karmola - Gunslinger (20)

Yeah it takes a little time to understand how mining ops work well and as you can see by this thread, we are still figuring out what works well for us.

As for protection. If I am in a field and you are within 55km of me then you are under my umbrella of missile fire. As soon as I have my tier 2 learning skills fleshed out I'll be extending that range too.

I also agree with Obbo. Smaller teams of 2-3 miners per belt would be much more effecient over all. Also, if you are the only miner in a section of a belt then you can split up your beams among multiple roids further increasing effeciency. (What I call the disco ball dance cause I have 5 lasers and when they are split up in 5 directions I look like a disco ball)

As long as one member of the team can protect the other members in the field then you can handle rats. As more players gain mining skills they will become more independant when it comes to rats, so needing to protect other players is just a temporary thing until they get into ships that can shrug off attacks from rats. (When I am along in a field I usually don't even waste ammo on rats, 4 or 5 of them can chew on my shields and never get them below 60%)

Haulers are prolly are largest long term problem unfortunatly. As people gain skills they tend to get good at mining and would rather be raking in ore than moving it. As more players get to this point there will be fewer and fewer people who want to haul. However for a mining op to be truly effecient there needs to be dedicated haulers. Itterion Vs are currently the best suited for this duty. Able to carry more than twice the cargo of any other hauler, each of these fellas counts as two normal haulers.

-LA
-LA

_________________
"Do not try and make the enemy respect you, try and make them think you are a joke. Because it is much easier to shoot them in the dark when they are laughing."

There may have been times where I locked onto an asteroid that was already being mined. That's mainly because I work via the overview more than by looking what is in space, and also because you can't always see the lasers coming from other ships from every angle.
When I do notice right away I'll (probably ) unlock and find something else, unless there are only a few left and it's just cleaning up.

The thing with the overview is it doesn't show direction. I could be concentrating on the bunch of rocks in front of me and inadvertently target an asteroid that is a part of some other bunch off behind me that someone else is dealing with, but is still in range.
With so many ships in one belt it’s sometimes hard to find unoccupied rocks.

So sorry if I appear to be a bit of a raving mad hypocritical lunatic at times.


I don't think our current mining practices would work too well in low sec space. If or when we ever get to that stage, I think we'd be looking to the large mining vessels, specifically the Exhumers, to be the ones to do the actual mining, with anyone else capable running protection (perhaps not particularly interesting, but I guess such is the life of low sec space mining).

I don't think splitting into multiple belts would detract from the fun of mining operations. Everyone is still in the gang, just not necessarily in the same spot, all working together on the same goal, which is a lot of the fun. And sure with an even more of an organisational challenge, wouldn't it be even more so?

No it wouldn't.

Omber provides Isogen which is where the real money is being made on these runs. Probably 95%+ of the wealth comes the Isogen. I'm not 100% sure what the scordite reprocesses into, but I think it's only the Trit.

General rule, Obbo/LA know what they need to go after.

_________________
Dalaran: Arindel - Frost Mage (Mining/Alchemy)
Dalaran: Roran - Paladin (Weaponsmith/Blacksmith)
Dalaran: Baine - Rogue

I'm working towards an Itty V as we speak. It'll take a while to get Industrials V, though. And I'm going to be specializing in hauling/refining/trading, for the most part.

The way I see it, I get a share whether I'm mining or hauling, and since everyone likes to mine, I'm filling a needed gap.

ISOGEN 4TW!! .

In fact I think I'm only going to bother with off loading the Isogen and just donate the leftovers to the corp for who ever needs it for crafting. The likes of the Trit etc.

Yeah, Isogen rules. There's a certain amount of satisfaction I get from selling Isogen and seeing how much money I get from it. Mmmmm.... tasty.

I think we're all in agreement and working towards an efficient, fun, and very lucrative venture. .

The next step will be deciding which ship combination/type will work best for us and then who wants to step into the roles. But, we can take that as it comes. I have a feeling more people will end up joining us in the next couple of months (well, maybe that's more a hope).

_________________
Dalaran: Arindel - Frost Mage (Mining/Alchemy)
Dalaran: Roran - Paladin (Weaponsmith/Blacksmith)
Dalaran: Baine - Rogue

Moniker is about 20 days from Itty V. Once I get that I will upgrade my Cago Expanders. At that point I should be able to haul around 30-35,000m3, righ tnow I haul 12km3. So with that I can haul 2 loads for every one I haul now which will help out a ton.

My only concern about splitting up is thieves. Not a huge issue around Aice but I would not do that in Lum.

Also, we do need people training BattleCruisers and battleships and not hav eeveryone in Barges. Barges have almost zero offense and we need othave people that can mine and protect us at the same time.

_________________
Moge

<- pwns fleets of rats in my barge

Veldspar yields Tritanium

Scordite yields Tritanium and Pyerite

Plagiaclase yields Tritanium, Pyerite and Mexallon

Omber yields Tritanium, Pyerite and Isogen

Tritanium will get you about 1.8 IPU

Pyerite might get you 4 IPU

Mexallon can reach 16 IPU but is usually around 14 IPU

Isogen generally can be found for 115 IPU but regularly reaches 120 IPU.

Refined or unrefined, Omber is allways the best choice in high sec space. Even unrefined Omber generally goes for 4 times more than the next best ore.

-LA

_________________
"Do not try and make the enemy respect you, try and make them think you are a joke. Because it is much easier to shoot them in the dark when they are laughing."